Kents private wwpotter archive : RE: Trunk Repair (or Bandage for Babar)

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Thanks for the ideas. I plan on taking my boat to a repair shop in the
morning. I visited one such shop yesterday, but the owner gave me really bad
vibes. Last night I crewed on another boat at the Duck Dodge. This boat "Do
the math," a Tanzer 7.5, had recently been in a nasty collision with another
boat at the races and had some $6500 in work done at Seattle Yacht Center.
The owner said she was really happy with their work. If the shop can't/won't
fix it, or if the damage is enough that the insurance company starts using
words like "totalled" then I'll attempt the repair myself. I was a little
dismayed at her bill though - apparently she lost her stern pulpit, damaged
some rigging, and did something to the motor mount and motor. I never saw
the original damage, but it sure didn't >sound< like $6500 worth to me. That
boatyard certainly did nice work though - the only evidence of a repair I
noticed was the shininess of her new pulpit - the owner had to point out all
the other work to me.

On my boat, the damage beneath (at the lower rear of the trunk) is probably
fixable with something like marine-tex. There's no real tearing down there -
just the outer layer of gelcoat got crushed pretty bad and flaked away and
you can see laminate beneath. This was basically the point on which the
daggerboard pivoted so the action was mostly a crushing one. But I don't
>think< any laminate was really damaged. I'm just a little shocked to SEE it
uncovered by gelcoat!

Inside at the upper front of the trunk, the damage is better described as a
'slice', about 4 or 5 inches down through the front of the trunk. I have no
real experience doing structural fiberglass repairs, but I've read
extensively on the subject, and I >think< the proper fix would be to cut
away the damaged front completely, bevel back the sides of the trunk quite a
ways (6-12"?) then do a standard layup sequence from one side, around the
(missing!) front, and to the other side.

Truthfully, the upper part seems fairly straightforward to me, and is
something I'd be willing to attempt myself. . What concerns me is that if
the damage on the lower section is worse than I can see, it would take some
serious rebuilding to fix. I don't think its that bad though.

For removing the keel: I figure I'd just float it, drop the board through
the slot, then dig the daggerboard from the water. For install I'd go to a
tire store or other service station with a lift and lower the boat on it. My
trailer design would allow me to do this on the trailer. Gotta be cheaper
than a trip in the Travellift at the boatyard. But the 'hole' idea is a good
one that I have contemplated in the past.

Steel bands: I'll have more to say on this subject when I hear back from the
boatyard. Actually, I like the idea of steel bands for their ability to
spread the load of the keel when resting on its safety bolts. I think I DONT
like the idea for protection in a grounding. My gut feeling is that if I had
more strength around the perimeter of the trunk, it would have concentrated
for force at the lower rear, which would be a more costly repair and a more
serious hole in the hull. As it was, my boat still did float and get me home
safely, alebeit with a lot less internal freeboard. In the absence of waves
and/or chop I wouldn't have taken on any water at all, and had it been a
little deeper, I would have jury-rigged a system to slow down the incoming
water. I probably would have used my trailer tie-down strap or some anchor
rode as a big bandage to hold together the front of the trunk to get myself
to a ramp.

I have grounded before, but its always been in mud or sand. In every case
the boat was come to a relative soft stop and the board has simply raised up
in the trunk. This was a definite high-speed impact on a large rock.

I don't think the approach of impact-resistance is a good one to persue. I
think the better protection for me with regards to grounding is for me to
make better decisions. These rocks didn't sneak up on me. I had my sounder
on, was watching it (20...10...9.8.7.6.5.4. clunk) and I had the local
knowledge and experience in this section of the lake. I knew the rocks were
there. (ok i didn't know it was RIGHT THERE but i knew they were close).
Unfortunately, this really makes it all worse -- my damage is a result of a
bad leadership decision on my part. I should have taken over the helm when
it was apparent the helmsperson wasn't going to take seriously my warnings
about the depth. Instead I won an argument and lost the boat.

I do plan on purchasing a few epoxy-sticks to keep aboard. A pair of those
would have at least sealed my leaks and bought me a lot of time.

I've gotten a lot of private email on this subject. While hardly anyone has
come forward publicly to share their grounding experiences, there are
several out there, with identical damage, most of which was fixed by the
skippers themselves, so my trip to the boatyard may to unnecessary. On the
other hand, a professional fix will help my re-sale value if I ever decide
to sell this boat on the list :)

Another common theme in private emails was concerns about damage to my
relationship with my wife over this incident. I was pretty cranky still when
I first wrote you all about this incident, and things are better now.
They'll be better still when the boat is on the water again. I appreciate
the concern.

On to happier news: The new cruising kite is going to work out well. Its
just short enough in the luff I can hoist it from the genoa halyard, though
I plan on experimenting with a separate halyard and block from the masthead.
I modified my downhaul arrangement for use as the tackline. I already had
blocks in the rear quarters on my genoa rails, and while the lead angles
could be better (as they could everywhere on my goofy track), they work well
for the sheets.
The chute is everything everyone said it would be - great for off-the-wind
work, not bad at all on a reach. It will even point up to a close reach if
you really haul on the tackline. But for close-hauled sailing, better switch
to the genoa.
It doesn't work well on a dead run because it gets blanketed by the main,
but it was better than I thought it would be. I can't think of a reason I
couldn't pole out the clew with my whisker pole for dead runs. That would be
a little unconventional but I think it would work.

I was also pleasantly suprised that with a little practice it should still
be possible to single-hand with this sail. The foot goes back so far you can
actually pull on the leech from the cockpit and get it down in a hurry. In
any event this is far easier to deal with than a conventional poled
spinnaker, but I have no experience with the P19 poled spinnakers so
maybe they're not as bad as they are on larger boats.

I couldn't be happier with the coloring - its as perfect a match to my other
sails as I could get. My main and lapper are red-white-and-blue and i look
like I'm recycling a french flag when sailing. My genoa is red and white.
This chute is red white and blue too, so it fits right in my obnoxious color
schemes. When I'm on the lake, you know its me :)

In short, thanks for the lead on getting that spinnaker. I certainly had an
ear-to-ear grin flying it that was well worth the $139.50 I payed for it!

-----Original Message-----
From: Rye Gewalt [mailto:ryeg@vais.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:55 AM
To: Eric Johnson; wwpotter@tscnet.com
Subject: Trunk Repair (or Bandage for Babar)

Eric:
Sorry to hear about your Keel/Trunk problem. I will have to be more
careful with my boat in the future. I have hit things while under power
with no noticeable damage, but suspect that they may have been softer than
what you hit. That's why I got the Huminbird.

On the subject of repairs.... I built a stitch and glue kayak several
years ago and used epoxy from Raka. http://www.raka.com/ It's good stuff
and considerably cheaper than the West epoxy at the boat store. There was
lots of discussion on the boat building group about West vs Raka and it was
finally agreed that their stuff was essentially the same, but that West
spends a lot of money promoting and supporting their product. Raka operates
out of a small shop (basement?) in Florida and has about zero overhead.
Anyway, I bought a gallon and half (1 gal resin, 1/2 gal hardener) for about
fifty - sixty bucks and they shipped via UPS in three days for cheap.

With regard to jacking the boat up to remove the keel: I dug a hole for
mine using a post hole digger (several holes side by side and then cleaned
out the waste -- just like mortise and tenion work in wood) and dropped the
keel into the hole. The post hole digger allows you to dig a very deep,
narrow, hole without lots of effort. That way you don't have to worry about
dropping the darn thing as the hole keeps it upright. I still have the hole
around here somewhere and would be happy to ship it to you if you will pay
postage.

I am a bit skeptical about using a cast resin approach for repair as the
glass cloth and/or mat are what give fiber glass its strength -- and I think
the areas you are repairing need all of the strength they can get --- as
evidenced by your accident. Any repair should try to connect the new glass
cloth/matt to the remaining trunk -- probably by overlapping with existing
structure, but I like the stainless steel insert idea too.

In that vein, I wonder if it might make sense for all of us to add steel
bands around the top and bottom of the trunk to distribute the shock load
under conditions such as you encountered. Maybe something like a big long
stainless steel hose clamp around the top and bottom.... Of course if we
strengthen the trunk too much it will just rip out of the hull in a similar
accident -- so maybe it's best left alone.

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Thanks=20 for the ideas. I plan on taking my boat to a repair shop in the morning. = I=20 visited one such shop yesterday, but the owner gave me really bad vibes. = Last=20 night I crewed on another boat at the Duck Dodge. This boat "Do the = math," a Tanzer 7.5, had recently been in a nasty collision with = another=20 boat at the races and had some $6500 in work done at Seattle Yacht = Center. The=20 owner said she was really happy with their work. If the shop can't/won't = fix it,=20 or if the damage is enough that the insurance company starts using words = like=20 "totalled" then I'll attempt the repair myself. I was a little = dismayed at her bill though - apparently she lost her stern pulpit, = damaged some=20 rigging, and did something to the motor mount and motor. I never saw the = original damage, but it sure didn't >sound< like $6500 worth to = me. That=20 boatyard certainly did nice work though - the only evidence of a repair = I=20 noticed was the shininess of her new pulpit - the owner had to point out = all the=20 other work to me.

On my=20 boat, the damage beneath (at the lower rear of the trunk) is probably = fixable=20 with something like marine-tex. There's no real tearing down there - = just the=20 outer layer of gelcoat got crushed pretty bad and flaked away and you = can see=20 laminate beneath. This was basically the point on which the daggerboard = pivoted=20 so the action was mostly a crushing one. But I don't >think< any = laminate=20 was really damaged. I'm just a little shocked to SEE it uncovered by=20 gelcoat!

Inside=20 at the upper front of the trunk, the damage is better described as a = 'slice',=20 about 4 or 5 inches down through the front of the trunk. I have no real=20 experience doing structural fiberglass repairs, but I've read = extensively on the=20 subject, and I >think< the proper fix would be to cut away the = damaged=20 front completely, bevel back the sides of the trunk quite a ways = (6-12"?)=20 then do a standard layup sequence from one side, around the (missing!) = front,=20 and to the other side.

Truthfully, the upper part seems fairly straightforward to me, = and is=20 something I'd be willing to attempt myself. . What concerns me is that = if the=20 damage on the lower section is worse than I can see, it would take some = serious=20 rebuilding to fix. I don't think its that bad = though.

For=20 removing the keel: I figure I'd just float it, drop the board through = the slot,=20 then dig the daggerboard from the water. For install I'd go to a tire = store or=20 other service station with a lift and lower the boat on it. My trailer = design=20 would allow me to do this on the trailer. Gotta be cheaper than a trip = in the=20 Travellift at the boatyard. But the 'hole' idea is a good one that I = have=20 contemplated in the past.

Steel=20 bands: I'll have more to say on this subject when I hear back from the = boatyard.=20 Actually, I like the idea of steel bands for their ability to spread the = load of=20 the keel when resting on its safety bolts. I think I DONT like the idea = for=20 protection in a grounding. My gut feeling is that if I had more strength = around=20 the perimeter of the trunk, it would have concentrated for force at the = lower=20 rear, which would be a more costly repair and a more serious hole in the = hull.=20 As it was, my boat still did float and get me home safely, alebeit with = a lot=20 less internal freeboard. In the absence of waves and/or chop I wouldn't = have=20 taken on any water at all, and had it been a little deeper, I would have = jury-rigged a system to slow down the incoming water. I probably would = have used=20 my trailer tie-down strap or some anchor rode as a big bandage to hold = together=20 the front of the trunk to get myself to a ramp.

I have=20 grounded before, but its always been in mud or sand. In every case the = boat was=20 come to a relative soft stop and the board has simply raised up in the = trunk.=20 This was a definite high-speed impact on a large = rock.

I=20 don't think the approach of impact-resistance is a good one to persue. I = think=20 the better protection for me with regards to grounding is for me to make = better=20 decisions. These rocks didn't sneak up on me. I had my sounder on, was = watching=20 it (20...10...9.8.7.6.5.4. clunk) and I had the local knowledge and = experience=20 in this section of the lake. I knew the rocks were there. (ok i didn't = know it=20 was RIGHT THERE but i knew they were close). Unfortunately, this really = makes it=20 all worse -- my damage is a result of a bad leadership decision on my = part. I=20 should have taken over the helm when it was apparent the helmsperson = wasn't=20 going to take seriously my warnings about the depth. Instead I won an = argument=20 and lost the boat.

I've=20 gotten a lot of private email on this subject. While hardly anyone has = come=20 forward publicly to share their grounding experiences, there are several = out=20 there, with identical damage, most of which was fixed by the skippers=20 themselves, so my trip to the boatyard may to unnecessary. On the other = hand, a=20 professional fix will help my re-sale value if I ever decide to sell = this boat=20 on the list :)

Another common theme in private emails was concerns about = damage to my=20 relationship with my wife over this incident. I was pretty cranky still = when I=20 first wrote you all about this incident, and things are better now. = They'll be=20 better still when the boat is on the water again. I appreciate the=20 concern.

On to=20 happier news: The new cruising kite is going to work out well. Its just = short=20 enough in the luff I can hoist it from the genoa halyard, though I plan = on=20 experimenting with a separate halyard and block from the masthead. I = modified my=20 downhaul arrangement for use as the tackline. I already had blocks in = the rear=20 quarters on my genoa rails, and while the lead angles could be better = (as they=20 could everywhere on my goofy track), they work well for the sheets.=20

The chute is everything everyone said it would be = - great for=20 off-the-wind work, not bad at all on a reach. It will even point up to a = close=20 reach if you really haul on the tackline. But for close-hauled sailing, = better=20 switch to the genoa.

It doesn't work well on a dead run because it gets = blanketed=20 by the main, but it was better than I thought it would be. I can't think = of a=20 reason I couldn't pole out the clew with my whisker pole for dead runs. = That=20 would be a little unconventional but I think it would work. =

I was=20 also pleasantly suprised that with a little practice it should still be = possible=20 to single-hand with this sail. The foot goes back so far you can = actually pull=20 on the leech from the cockpit and get it down in a hurry. In any event = this is=20 far easier to deal with than a conventional poled spinnaker, but I have = no=20 experience with the P19 poled spinnakers so

I=20 couldn't be happier with the coloring - its as perfect a match to my = other sails=20 as I could get. My main and lapper are red-white-and-blue and i look = like I'm=20 recycling a french flag when sailing. My genoa is red and white. This = chute is=20 red white and blue too, so it fits right in my obnoxious color schemes. = When I'm=20 on the lake, you know its me :)

=20 -----Original Message-----
From: Rye Gewalt=20 [mailto:ryeg@vais.net]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:55=20 AM
To: Eric Johnson; wwpotter@tscnet.com
Subject: = Trunk=20 Repair (or Bandage for Babar)