I'm curious about how your keel locks down. I'm one of four people (including you) that I know of who have damaged their P19 keel trunk There are probably more, but not many or we'd be hearing about it on the email list. There are 1150 or more P19's that have been built, and we dont' hear a lot of stories about keel trunk damage. While it's a valid concern, my impression is that, all-in-all, old boats with centerboard keels have no more or fewer problems than boats with swing keels.
There are so many variations on the P19, and from the stories I've heard, some can take a hard grounding with little effect, and some sustain some damage. I wonder what makes the difference?
My boat had one of the flimsiest P19 keel trunks ever built, during Joe Edwards' ownership of the company. Joe tried some weird cost-cutting experiments in 1985. The side walls of the trunk were barely 3/8" thick and they were bare, rough glass, with no gelcoat or case around it. In a stiff breeze, you could actually see the keel trunk flex laterally!. The new P19 keel trunks from IM are much sturdier and have a much better design.
On my 1985 model P19, the lockdown bolt goes into a hole drilled sideways through the the trunk and keel, a few inches down from the top. I damaged the keel trunk a few months ago, when I used a SS steel thru bolt instead of a nylon "breakaway" to lock it down. Usually I use a nyon bolt that will break away. The boat went 15 years without a mishap and the one time I use a steel bolt.... pow! Every other time I've hit a rock, I had a break-away bolt in the keel, and the keel just popped up a few inches, doing no damage other than scraping the keel.
The day I did the damage, I hit a huge rock that had fallen out of a retaining wall at low tide inside the marina. The keel pivoted around the steel bolt, and the top front edge of the keel put a 2" x1.5" crack/gouge in the the top front corner of the keel trunk. I was really upset when it happened, but after I calmed down, I realized that it was no big deal structurally, and I sailed the boat for two more months before starting the repairs at the end of the season.
>From stories I've heard, on the new Potters from IM, you'll break or rip out their flip-up keel bolts if you run hard enough aground to do any damage. It's a royal pain, but it's fairly easy to repair/replace the lockdowns. Larry Costa had that happen to him, and he replaced his lockdowns with heavy rubber straps that had some give to them. It works well, by his account.
As for the really old potters, my hubby Dave was on Jerry Barrilleaux's old HMS18 #48 one day when they hit a rock at about 6 knots, coming to a dead stop in a split second. It was a really violent grounding, but no damage at all was done to the trunk.
Since I had insurance that covered the damage, I hired a top-notch (read expensive!) boatyard in SF to repair the damage to my trunk. They recommended 1) don't be a dummy - use a breakawy bolt (duh!), and 2) don't make the front any stronger than it was; leave the design so that the front edge is the most likely place to give way in a hard grounding. (Allstate insurance was very cool, they sent a check out to cover the repairs in under 4 weeks. No hassles at all!)
The boatyard didn't recommend making the front of the keel trunk bullet-proof. Why? Because it's relatively easy to repair, and it's far preferable to have the top corner of the trunk take the hit than to have the keel trunk rip out of the hull. The philosophy is something like the "crumble zones" in a car- design it so the damage is minimized and the basic structural integrity isn't compromised. If the keel cracks in the front first, you won't rip the keel trunk out of the boat (thereby sinking!) or get the keel stuck so you can't get it out of the water! That's an advantage in my mind, not a disadvantage.
It's wasn't a complicated repair, about 10-12 hours total, hoist the boat to remove and replace the keel, touch up the scrape on the bottom edge of the keel by sandblasting/epoxying/fairing, remove and replace the damaged glass with 8 new layers of uni- and b-directional cloth, and repaint the trunk with gelcoat.
My boat insurance paid for that, but I had them do a lot of additional work: replace all the keel raising blocks, rebuild the keel winch in the machine shop (the pawl was very worn and the springs were weak), replace the cable, make a beautiful solid mahogany cap, sand blast, epxoy and fair the whole keel, put bottom paint on the keel and inside the trunk, laterally stiffen the keel trunk with coring and knee braces so there's zero lateral flexion, etc. Insurance paid for the repairs; I paid for the "improvements".
If you're wondering why I went to all that additinal trouble and expense, remember that my 1985 keel trunk is probably the worst one you'll ever see in a P19 -- the side walls were only about 3/8" thick, it flexed laterally under a load, and the finished surface was sloppy as hell. The new ones have a much sturdier design without the lateral flexion of my old 1985. As long as insurance was paying to remove the keel, it was cost effective to do the improvements at the same time. It was 8 years since the last time the keel was epoxied and faired, so my keel was moderately in need of maintenance. And I had the chance to learn alot from watching the pros work on my boat. And, if I do say so myself, the mahogany cap looks way COOLl!!!
I think that, with *any* keel design, it's possible to run hard aground and damage it somehow. Even a swing keel. It all depends on how you hit the obstruction. I've heard of pivot bolts getting bent on swing-keel boats in a grounding so it wouldn't go up or down, and/or developing leaks around the pivot bolt after running hard aground.
So I'm curious about the design of your keel trunk, Mac. How does the keel lock down, and where did the damage occur? I'm trying to figure out which models get damaged and which ones don't and what the difference is. If we knew that, we could figure out a way to identify the models that are at risk and prevent any damage.
Fair winds,
Judy B
1985 WWP-19 #266 Redwing
SF Bay, CA
Visit my Potter Website at http://hometown.aol.com/jblumhorst/HomePage/index.htm
----------
From: Mac Davis[SMTP:mcmd@innet.com]
Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 11:21 AM
To: t lamb; hapilife@efn.org; mulford@bellatlantic.net
Cc: ecpa@onelist.com; wwpotter@tscnet.com
Subject: Re: P17
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
West Wight Potter Website at URL
http://www.lesbois.com/wwpotter/
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Hi Todd:
As a current shallow water P19 owner and former swing keel Chrysler 22
owner, here are my thoughts.
1. The 6" draft is a reality, but not while sailing any point other than
dead downwind. Raising the center (dagger) board has an unstabilizing
effect on the center of gravity that will be potentially troublesome with
any degree of heel at all. Where I sail, the 6 inch draft is necessary for
access to open water, but for shallow sailing, at least a half board down is
required to prevent leeway and maintain stability. Thus you are looking at
the same effective draft, even with the kick-up rudder kicked up.
2. I have had two groundings on submerged (and invisible) oyster bars while
near hull speed. In both cases, all forward progress stopped abruptly and
there was damage to the dagger board trunk. While I had the Chrysler, I had
one severe collision with a sunken (unmarked and invisble) steel hulled
fishing boat in South San Diego Bay, also at hull speed. The episode was
attention getting, but the boat sailed away with only scratches on the iron
swing keel, which swung up and over the obstacle and then returned to its
former down position.
3. All sailboat cabins are inconvenient unless they provide full standing
headroom and ability for two 200 pounders to pass each other without
unavoidably touching.
Hope this helps,
Mac Davis
Kelpie, WWP19#804, Aripeka, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: t lamb <lambt@hotmail.com>
To: <hapilife@efn.org>; <mulford@bellatlantic.net>
Cc: <ecpa@onelist.com>; <wwpotter@tscnet.com>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: P17
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> West Wight Potter Website at URL
> http://www.lesbois.com/wwpotter/
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> As a current owner of a swing-keeled Catalina 22, I find your desire for a
> swing keel interesting. I am looking to sell my 22 and buy a P19. One of
> the main reasons I want a P19 is the centerboard approach which is better
> for saltwater (no cables / pivots underwater), eliminates slot drag, and
> most importantly allows for the awesome 6" draft compared to 20" on my 22
> (launching ease, beachability). My current understanding is that the only
> disadvantage is potential damage with hard grounding and perhaps some
cabin
> inconvenience. That being said, I have never sailed, touched, or even
seen
> a Potter in person.
>
> Todd Lamb
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: happy life skills foundation <hapilife@efn.org>
> To: "Lars S. Mulford" <mulford@bellatlantic.net>
> CC: ecpa@onelist.com, wwpotter@tscnet.com
> Subject: Re: P17
> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:15:16 -0800 (PST)
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> >From wwpotter-request@tscnet.com Thu Dec 16 18:45:40 1999
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>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> West Wight Potter Website at URL
> http://www.lesbois.com/wwpotter/
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Lars count me in!!!! swing keel!!!!
> Ken Silverman
> mebbe send a list to IM.....?
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Lars S. Mulford wrote:
>
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > West Wight Potter Website at URL
> > http://www.lesbois.com/wwpotter/
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > Trijc@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > If anyone is taking orders, I too would be in line for a P17, or for
> that
> > > matter, a P19 if it had a centerboard instead of a daggerboard. How
> many
> > > prospective buyers do we need to convince the owners to make one?
> >
> > Jim, East Coasties, Webgang:
> >
> > I'd get in line for a P19 with a swing keel or centerboard too. As far
> as a
> > P17, I wonder if somewhere out there, the molds for the Luger Seabreeze
> are
> > available.. 17' in length, hard chined hull, swing keel, and a decent
> > performer.. cabin would sleep 4, with a neat doghouse arrangement in
the
> aft
> > part of the cabin.... I had one, and it was a really neat boat. Too
bad
> my
> > health at the time wasn't up to it. Anyway, it would make a neat P17,
> for
> > sure..
> >
> > --
> > "Sea" ya!
> >
> > --Lars S. Mulford, President
> > East Coast Potter Association (ECPA)
> > Come visit us at http://members.tripod.com/~SpeedSailor
> > s/v Always P15 #2125, lateen rig, sailing greater Chesapeake region
> > "Forgive, and live. Life is worth the challenge of living." --LSSM
> > "Love is good; Love hurts; Love sustains; Love remains." --LSSM
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
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