Webgang,
I recieved this email today. Seems our recent, candid discussion about
capsize ratios has scared off at least one would-be Potter buyer.
I plan to reply later with a long, scholarly explanation of the history
behind the "Capsize Screening Ratio" that was developed after the Fastnet
Disaster in 1989, but I though maybe folks on the list could tell their own
P19 and P15 "gale" stories. I'm SURE that the capsize ration screen is
about recovering from a capsize, not about suceptability to capsize, and
I'll write a long explanation later on.
Whilst everyone waits with bated breath for my scholarly explanation, :^)
I want to make a few observations, and state a few facts and opinions about
the P19.
I'll leave the P15 comments for others with more hands-on experience than I
do.
These are in no particular order:
- You don't have to sail the P19 with one hand on the tiller for fear that a
gust will put her on her ear and fill the cockpit with water. the P19 is a
very dry boat. If you're sailing along in 20 knots (with full main and jib)
and a gust of 45 hits you, she'll lay over 85 degrees so the side decks are
in the water, round up gracefully into the wind, and the pop back up on her
feet with barely a gallon in the cockpit. I've seen it happen to Jerry.
I've never managed to knock mine down past about 45 degrees and I've never
taken water into the cockpit.
- In my public role as the Commodore of the Potter Yachters, I feel a
responsibility to be very conservative and well-balanced in my comments on
the capabilities of the Potter 19. A lot of beginners send me a lot of
questions. I don't know the sailing abilities of most of the poeple with
whom I correspond, so I'm pretty careful about what I right.
- Try to find a boat under 34 feet that has never been capsized. It doesn't
exist. any boat can be capsized by a big enough wave, even with the world's
best skipper at the helm. Check with the coast guard, you'll find every
production boat out there has been capsized at least once.
-My comments about not sailing the P19 across oceans were just common sense.
Of course, you can do it and arrive alive, if you're an excellent skipper
and plan your weather window carefully. Bill Combs takes his P19 to the
Bahamas, and Dik Richardson takes his to Baja all the time.
--The top skippers in the PY club have taken their P15's and P19's out "The
Slot" on San Francisco Bay, through 15 foot waves and riptides (after
carefull planning for the tides/currents that can, on occassion, top 6
knots)
- My comments "don't sail in gales with 50 knot winds and 30 foot breaking
waves" were aimed at the beginner, who might think that the Potter is so
seaworthy than anybody can just take off for the South Pacific. That's good
advice for anyone. All my friends who have 34-footers or larger head for
harbor when they hear that a storm with winds over 35 knots sustained is
coming in. Even sitting at anchor in 50 knots is scarey. I have friends
who weathered a hurricane in the middle of the atlantic ocean and 65 knot
winds with 50 foot waves for four days, but that was on a 54-footer designed
for ocean crossings.
- MyP19, Redwing, has an illustrious history -- she was sailed up and down
the west coast from Washington state to Mexico by her previous owner. She
was a live-aboard for five years while he did that.
-To claim that the Potter is a true trans-ocean passage maker is stretching
the design limitations inherent in a small trailer-sailor I've sailed my
P19 safely in winds as high as 45 knots when weather circumstances demand.
It's doable, but no it's fun and I am tense and wet and anxious the whole
time. Heck, I wouldn't leave the dock with winds over 35 knots and
building. No prudent skipper would.
- I'd rather be sailing my P19 than a Catalina 28 when the shit hits the fan
on SF Bay.
- in my opinion, Beginners shouldn't even go out in winds over 15 knots --
just don't have the skill. If winds build to 30 knots, they'll come back
scared to death, but the P19 will bring them back alive.
- I chose my Potter for fun and safety, good manners, and comfort (and ease
of trailering and launching). I've been sailing and medium boats for 30
years, (including Soling 27 foot Olympic-class racers, Lido's, one-man
high-performance racing dinghies and windsurfers up and down both coasts in
winds up to 45 -50 and waves up to 25 feet) and, in my opinioin, the P19 is
one of the safest under 6000 pounds in heavy weather. There are dozens of
us who happily and safely sail our P19's on San Francisco bay every weekend
in 20-35 knot winds. We're out there in the Bay's infamous "Slot" when all
the other boats under 30 feet have gone back to the dock or are sailing in
less windy parts of the bay.
-Saying that the P19 is exceptionally stable, dry and safe for heavy weather
is NOT the same as saying I would take it across an ocean. First of all,
I'm not half good enough to try an ocean crossing, and secondly, I'd choose
a MUCH bigger boat if I were to try it. At least 15,000 pounds and 34 feet
long. 65,000 pounds and 50 feet long would be better.
Members of the Potters Yachters sail on SF Bay, one of the windiest
locations in the US. The better skippers in the club are out there every
weekend from February to November, in 15-35 knot winds, sailing our P15's
and P19's and having a good time when the other boats under 25 feet have
gone home.
Fair winds,
Judy Blumhorst, Commodore, Potter Yachters
1985 WWP-19 #266, Redwing, SF Bay, CA
-----Original Message-----
From: DELETED
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 8:10 AM
To: drjudyb@pacbell.net
Subject: Capsize ratio really only a measure of recoverability?
Judy, I saw your posting on the potter list about the capsize screening
ratio. For my own curiosity, I'd like to know what your reference is for
the comment that it is a ratio of recoverability from capsize, not
susceptibility to capsize. I don't know anything about the development of
the formula and don't doubt your sources for that info, but just from
looking at the way different models of boats measure up in that equation, I
would say that the boats with the higher numbers are definitely more
susceptible to capsize in addition to whatever might be their limitations in
recovering from one, which brings me to another point: I have been
considering purchasing a Potter but was stopped dead in my tracks by the
post on this capsize ratio and your follow-up post advising not to "sail a
Potter in conditions where you will be hundreds of miles off-shore in 50
knots wind with 30 foot, breaking seas." I don't plan to go in search of
those conditions, but I thought a big part of the Potter's appeal was its
performance in heavy weather despite its size. Not so? The manufacturer,
after all, advertises her as an "ocean cruiser." Since reading those posts,
I have gone to the resurrected lesbois site and read the story of a P15
capsize in conditions that a Cape Dory Typhoon would have winked at. What's
happened to the Potter legend? The ocean crossings? The derrring do? I
have owned a Cape Dory 30, an S2 28, a Slipper 17, and a Marshall
Sanderling. There's no fun in having to sail with your hand constantly on
the mainsheet on a gusty day for fear the next gust is going to fill the
cockpit with seawater. Is that what I can expect on a P19?
While I am it, let me bend your ear a little more on another design
question. On the subject of turning turtle it seems that one of the
cardinal sins with the Potter is sailing with the daggerboard up or even not
locked down in windy conditions. That means no "sailing up" onto a beach,
and the potential for damage to the daggerboard trunk from a grounding
means having to be as careful about where you sail as you'd be in a 3-foot
draft full keel boat. The ability to step out onto a beach versus having
to wade there is nice, but I'm not sure that I will spend that much time
going ashore. Does that jibe with your impression of the daggerboard
arrangement, or am I not giving the design its due?
Thanks.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue Feb 29 2000 - 03:27:09 PST