<< Subj: Re: Safe Working Loads, inter alia
Date: 3/10/99 9:48:04 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: gatorjj@mindspring.com (J.J.Falkanger)
To: wwpotter@tscnet.com
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On Wed, 10 March 1999, "Mac Davis" wrote:
> That's why Racelite fittings don't fail and pop rivits are able
> to hold our potters together. Unless you are in love with hardware
> (and, I freely admit, there are worse afflictions) Lewmar or Spinlock rope
> clutches are a little over the top on a P19.
Yeah, but Mac, they look soooooo cool!
I have my headsail and main halyards run back through clutches, and it's
absolutely wonderful to put sails up and down in 3 seconds on a whim or
emergency (the clutches are overkill, yes, but again they look cool). If I
had roller furling, boom vang, reefing lines, etc. all coming back, I'd need a
bigger boat just to mount all that hardware. No wonder people think sailing
is so complicated!
J.J. Falkanger
Cary, NC
P-19 #792 "Fozzguppy"
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>>>>
Sorry got carried away...
Wow! commercials follow your message. Probably inserted by your ISP without
your knowledge. It's like Spam riders or addendums... I left it in place so
you would know... Does not bother me at all... Wonder if AOL is planning the
same thing...
Well since I have to keep my mind busy I will climb "the" podium...
This is tough to proofread so give me some leeway...
Clutches have working loads in range of 1-3000 lbs , cam cleats have working
loads in range of 150-2000 pounds. My understanding is that once you lift that
lever, clutch releases line at a speed commesurate with lever height. How
easy it is to lift lever when line is under load I do not know. I do know that
you will not find cam or clam cleats holding sheets or halyards on large
sailboats (30'+). But, you will find clutches holding sheets/halyards on large
sailboats. I also know that once you get that gust of wind heeling you over
that clam/cam cleat will not let go cause you cannot pull that line back
without ripping out a muscle.
Cam cleats are designed to release lines as abruptly as they engage and they
release all at once; clutches are designed to release lines only when the
lever is flipped/pressed and they allow controlled easing of lines, such as
you'd want when easing the main halyard for reefing. Cam cleats are all or
nothing unless you have strong hands and arms. Both wear out the line at point
of contact.
You can't use a winch with a camcleat unless the line is horizontal to the
cleat, unless you run the line through winch first and then to cleat. Some
people place camcleat on a pedestal so they can use it with a winch and load
is at same level as line. This is more trouble than it is worth. Others use a
guide but that is also a pain in the petunias.
IMHO:
My experience with halyards is that a regular open clam cleat is more than
adequate to handle 15 to 80 lbs of pressure applied to mainsail halyard on a
Potter 19. (I would use a cam cleat for a Genoa. Clutches for a Spinnaker. I
do not know of a P19 with a mast mounted halyard winch. Pulling on main
halyard or jib halyard as hard as you can will not apply more than 80 Lbs of
pressure to luff due to where you have to stand to do the pulling (unless you
are a weight lifter). I have observed that while sailing you can release main
halyard and sail will not lower one CM. I've tried it. Sail falls only when
headed directly into wind and reluctantly at that. The Potter only has one/two
lines from mast that may exceed 100 Lbs of pressure and that seems to be
jib/Genoa/Spinnaker halyard(s). If like me, you use a furler and no Spinnaker
then that takes care of that! After many years of use I have yet to have a
clam/cam cleat release a sail unless I pulled on it and lifted it off cleat*.
I've stepped on them regularly.
Some very adept sailors use halyards and boom vang to effect sail trim. For
them clutches are the only way to go. I use topping lift, mainsail downhaul,
and boom vang but my wind range is only 5 - 15 MPH and I do so only when wind
is below about 13 MPH. Above that I don't mess with them. (Bad hand,
remember?)
I find it easy to just stand on dgrbrd and lift or lower main on my P19. I
believe wind speed in sailing area should dictate what to use. Less than 15MPH
sustained regular wind speed sailing makes clam/cam cleats adequate. Over 20
MPH sustained, a clutch is definitely in order. Just so you could release that
darn line... Again this is just my opinion... You may disagree...
My ole Col 22 (236 sf sail area with jib) used aluminum clam cleats on top of
cabin for all halyards led aft and a large cam cleat for second jib line used
for spinnaker and Genoa. Winches and horn cleats for jibsheets. I never
winched in a Genoa on those winches. I used them as ratcheting blocks. You
can release a line quickly with a clam/cam cleat as long as wind speed is
below 15 MPH. It becomes progressively more difficult to release a line from a
cam/clam cleat as wind speed rises above 15 MPH.The clam-cleats with eyehole
(CCE) do not release fast because eyehole keeps line on top of cleat teeth
that grab line if you release it. Cam cleats release abruptly. You lift line
off an open clam cleat and drop it on side and wham! Sail's down (hopefully)
or line is gone. If you do that on a CCE you will be lucky to find it release
line all the way. The ole Col 22 had a knack for finding Santa Ana winds of
50+ MPH every time I took a new girl friend on it. (I think it got jealous).
the cam/clam cleats were located together about 8 inches fwd of cabin
top/cockpit junction. None of clam cleats ever released a line (I wish they
had, quite a few times.) *Therein lies the problem with clam/cam cleats.
Releasing a line when it is gusty or wind exceeds 15 MPH is close to
impossible. My understanding with a clutch is that it is much easier to lift
lever and pay out a line under control. No sudden wham bam it's gone.
I lift and keep 20' mast of my 13' Sovereign by cleating it to a clam cleat
when it is upright and then walking to bow and attaching forestay while it
floats in water. All lines led are led aft to clam cleats. This has been
adequate up to 25 MPH wind speed. In my opinion clutches on a P15 are a BIG
waste of money.
If you have the CDI roller furler, use of a clutch may be or not be a
necessity. You cannot adjust foresail luff unless you climb up on deck and
release that CDI halyard. Performance racing is next to impossible with a
furler. I would use clam cleats for all halyards except boom vang and topping
lift as I adjust these continually. Boom vang, Cunningham and Topping Lift
definitely need the one with eyehole (CCE). So if you are leading all lines
aft and your sailing area wind speed is below 15 MPH cam/clam cleats may well
be more than adequate. However, if you regularly encounter 15 + MPH then go
for the clutch so you can let those lines go under control and not pull a back
muscle while at it. I would never use a horned cleat on boom vang, main
downhaul or topping lift. I never worry about lowering the main as I can furl
the lapper a lot quicker than I can reef a main.
Leading lines aft makes quite a few knotted line problems on that tiny Potter
19 cockpit unless you are tidy and have rope bags or hangers for them. Heck!
main/jibsheets alone are enough for me.
The main advantage to a clutch is that you can release the line while it is
under tension. Something really hard to do with a cam or clam cleat. In a
strong blow it makes a difference. If I sailed SF Bay I would get clutches and
sail with downhauls installed. In LA I would go with cam/clam cleats, forget
the downhauls. In FL I will use clam cleats for main halyard and topping
lift... If I ever get to more than 4 lines led aft I will go to a 4 line
clutch, all on one side. Most of the sailing in my area is under 20 MPH and I
am not a racer, yet...
Again, conditions you sail in are primary indicators of which type or line
holding method you should use.
Amen, I get off the podium... Next? :^)
Best to y'all
{:^)
Solar Fry